Showdown at City hall councilmeeting, score one for religious right{or should we?}

Read this post/article at my other blog: "The Iconoclast Project"
http://project-iconoclast.blogspot.com

In Reason:
The very irreverand Bill Baker

The nature of the divine...

Is God all loving,moral,just,etc?....
I have a question.I used to be a Christian, first a evangelical/fundamentalist and then I spent some time as a Liberal Christian before becoming a Deist, then a Pantheist. I settled on Universist{which embraces unites faithless reason based freethought philosophies: Atheism,agnosticism,pantheism,deism,trancendentali sm,etc} and have been so for over a year and a half. I have also embraced Symbolic Satanism some months ago, and consider myself both. I am "agnostic".That said, one of the biggest questions that led me from both types of Christianity as well as to a small degree from Deism{even though I fault deists not Deism-a simple beleif that there is a creator; and still promote and sometimes lean towards deistic thought}.

This question is as follows:
Ok, fist off we'll disregard both types of Christinity as well as Deism, for this can be aimed at all{including some type sof pantheism} though it is not neccaserily aimed at Deism but alot of Deists{whom attempt,like some of their heros such as Thomas Paine, whom happens to be one of mine as well; attempt to vindicate the Designer, or "natures god" from the cruelty and hypocrisy of biblegod-O.T. mainly but also N.T. to some degree and often,like Paine and Jefferson,etc, assume that the Creator is ultimately just,loving,reasonable,etc because there seems to be order in the Universe, even though there is also chaos and violence to bring order about, and because of the existence of "reason" which evolved into us}. I know liberal Christians also try to vindicate god from the O.T. model of him a bit and think in purely theistic or perhaps panentheistic terms.My question:If God exists and pre-existed all things, all energy forms and matter, all thought forms, and knew what would come to be from his/her/it's creation; and all these things and all the good and the evil, the harm and the help, the hate and the love, the mercy and cruelty, the chaos in the Universe{s} and all tjhe horrible acts that sentient and non-sentient species do to each other{in our case war,oppression,persecution,prejudice,rape,murder,m olestation,torture,war crimes,etc,etc,etc}and allows them and allows suffering and starvation on innocent children and the brutally selfish to gain riches and pleasure during;All these things,like we ourselves, coming from w/in the depths of "god" whom thought/spoke everything that is into existence{which would not exist w/out having first existed w/in the depths of god}-as a manifestation of his/her/it's will and inner nature and character.In this case, as it would seem to be and cannot be escaped from, and for the orthodox Christians and muslims,etc, Satan/Shaitan/Iblis,Ahriman,Lillith,etc, and his fall and subsequent leading a third of angels to be w/him in this rebelliona and all the so called harm and hate he "supposedly" gave birth to{I have a different intrpretation of the story/myth myself}, then would'nt that have been gods will-since all those thought forms and energies that led to that pre-existed w/in gods beeing and were willed into existence{as they could not exist otherwise};would'nt this make god, byt whatever conception,faith,philosophy, you see him/her/it from, either evil and bad{using these terms in a relative sense to what democratic,advanced races such as some humans think of as such, though the terms have no real cosmic meaning and are our contructs} or in the very least-neutral, neither or both{good and evil, hateful and loving,occasioanlly reasonable and occasionally unreasonable/just and unjust, harmful and helpful,etc} or perhaps none of these because she/he/it would now be emty of all feeling/emotion and intent of though as he/she/it may have then emptied it out of itself into the universe and now god is mindless and w/out personality{and in fact perhaps is now -"us"; menaing that when we do good that is god, whe we do harm-that is god}.Ultimately though would this not make "god" by whatever conception, evil, or both good and evil, or neither and empty and void?nonetheless, the concept espoused by so many people for so many faiths{and versions of those faiths} and so many philosophies that god is love, god is just, god is moral/holy/righteous;and the claim that god has no evil/hate/violence/immorality/unfairness/etc in him/her/it; that very claim is made completely void and provable as wrong.It all is a manifestation of this gods will{however you concieve of an eternal,pre-existent creator}; meaning that it is false and wrong to say stuff like "god is love" or "god is not hate",etc, because god is neither or both; common sense{even according to faiths own conceptions that god is pre-existent,created all,is omni-etc} dictates as a fact that god is not those things that most say.So therefore all those that try to justify god and/or vindicate him/her/it or try to say that god is love and has not hate, is holy and has not evil, is light and has not darkess, is just and has not injustice,etc{whether evangelical/fundamentalist or liberal/moderate Christian,Muslim,Jew,etc; or White light Neo-pagan/Wiccan, whether Hindu, whether Deist or pantheist,etc,etc}-are liars and cold-hearted when they try to glorify a god of pure love and holiness when someone is in such great suffering; or perhaps just confused like god is confused.I won't be like the "strong" atheist and say as Neitzsche did-"god is dead" or "god does not exist", that is a absolute claim I simply cannot prove{which is why I am agnostic}.But I will say "god is evil" or "god is not love/holy/just", or "god is all value judgements{and no one can tell another that what they do/say/think/beleive/etc is against gods will; regardles sof how cold or evil or sick it is".and actually for the orthodox/fundamentalist/evangelical Christians; the earlies O.T. writings, such as the book of Genesis have a a vision of a neutral god. In the first chapters of the book of Genesis God said "now man is like us knowing both good AND evil"{modern intpretations of this may mean something different; but the authors of these books likely had a conception of god as both the author of good things and bad things; and actually throught the O.T. god often says so himself; "I create the light and the darkness, I create help and calamity, I the Lord to all these things" is one of other examples}.

Can anyone logically and evidececeally refute this? When I would bring this question up when i was still Christian and strugling w/my faith , even in "question" format as opposed to ranting opinion format, NO ONE-NO RELIGIOUS LEADER OR CHRISTIAN OR PERSON-PERIOD was able to answer it and it was as if they were scared to even try. It stumped/stumps just as much if not more than the "who created god" question. Except this one has to do w/the fundamental nature of god.

You may find this post offensive or pushy,etc. But many people such as myself don't get the same respect from believers in a good god as they and their friends get from us/and everyone else. We find it offensive to be constantly bobarded in this world by this bullshit message of a loving god-since it seems it is so fundamentally untrue. Frankly, I find the fact that most will be offneded at someone like me dooing something liek this highly hypocritical whilst they either offend us w/that b.s. OR condone those that do{at leats much more than they would condone us to them}.
I challenge all to prove me wrong!

In Reason:
he very irreverand Bill Baker

Of faith{absolutes},mental illness, and child abuse

This post can be read at my other blog-"The Iconoclast Project"
http://project-iconoclast.blogspot.com/

Religious freedom and the "gay agenda"

I've been hearing about this case about a B.C. teacher named "Chris Kempling". He is a Conservative/Fundamentalist Christian whom opposed what Fundys call the "homosexual agenda" beeing shoved onto kids in schools, and gay-marriage,etc. Mr.Kempling wrote some letters to the editors of newspapers expressing his views on these things and got suspended for a few months from his teaching job for it, and has been drawn into a lengthy and expensive legal battle.Now, as full of shit as I think people like Mr.Kempling are on such issues; and as much as I'd love to see their centuries of power hold on the western world of enforcing their intolerance, and in a sense perhaps they are now beginning to as the babble..er...Bible says- "reap" as they have "sown"{reaping intolerance for their centuries of power hold and intolerance}, and I feel a sense of poetic grand justice at it all; on the more tempoiral and immediate scale, I wonder if such penalties for their exorcising of their freedom of speech and freedom of the press{as intolerant,archaic, and full of bullshit, not to mention as "dangerous" as these views may be} are exsessive.These people have a seriuos persecution complex, even though it has been their kind that have held the most power,wealth, and influence for 1700 years{since Constantine} and have used their so-called "holy book" to supress others rights and, to opress, and to even treat others cruelly{it is the Fundamentalists of this faith which have historically been behind such oppresions as the Inquisitions, the witch burnings, opression of black people and of aboriginal/native peoples,} and crual subversions; now they ar reaping as they've sown, and I find it hard to have sympathy for them.They believe that the inclusion of "homosexuality' into the hate crimes laws, and of gay-marriage passing will result in the downfall of our civilization and in their religious freedoms beeing seriuosly oppressed. Now while I think that their paranioa about his is exsessive; I do agree that in the early stages of homosecuality beeing accepted here that the Fundamentalist Christians indeed "may" be subjected to a small amount of undemocratic injustices, but that in the long run they will not be nearly as severwly persecuted as they assume they are about to be{as they lsoe their power hold and monopoly on everything}, in the long run they will not be forced{on a massive scale} to accomodate homosexuals/homosexuality into their Churches and their religious businesses,etc. But many of them are crying "persecution" even in cases where they say own secular/non-religiuos businesses and treat homosexuals to discrimination therein{lest get this straight-NO PUN INTENDED; you are free Fundys to discrimate on basis of your religious buildings but not your non-religious businesses,etc, or if if you a landlord or something}. In the long run, the apoclaypse will not result from it{unless, THEY FORCE IT} and they will not face "heavy" persecutions, and it will subside in a short period{unless they continue to be power hungry and seek to suppress equality rights outside of their own religiuos intitutions}..Back on track to Mr.Kempling.I do agree that Mr.Kempling, as ignorant and half-cocked as his views are, has been unfairly discriminated against, and excessively punished. He spoke his views publically in a public paper, expressing his freedom of religion and freedom of the press, he was'nt preaching this bulsshit in the classroom outright; so in this case, sometimes in cases like these-we of both the gay community and/or gay rights community and our supporters can act power-hungry too; I think Mr.kempling probbaly should be apologized too{whilst told how full of shit his views are; though democratically it is his right to express them in the press like that}, his beeing a teacher should "probably" not disalow him from dooing so. I have a hard time saying this, because men like him have my contempt, and sometimes I feel like they are just reaping as they've sown and should have to face the consequences of their intolerant and persecutiong views and actions; but what can I say "freedom of religion/freedom of the press" people, it's a charter right. He has been exsessively punished.

What are your views, feel free to share.

Here are a couple links on the issue of Mr.Kempling http://www.narth.com/docs/canteacher.html http://www.bcptl.org/rights.htm http://www.bcptl.org/rights.htm#April2505

In Reason:
the Very Irreverand Bill Baker

JUNE 15 update on the religious controversy I've stirred up.

to read the update, go to my other bog "The Iconoclast Project":
http://project-iconoclast.blogspot.com/

In Reason:
The Very Irreverand Bill Baker

Pastor responds....{and my invasion of a Bethel Church service}

Before reading this post in full, please scroll down and read the shorter post "update on what has transpired...." follow it's intructions, readf all it suggests and then come back and read this post.


BEGINNING OF THIS NEWEST POST:

So, The Head Pastor, Mike Davis, of Bethel Temple has responded to the current controversy.
he wrote a letter to the editor.

here is his letter:
CITY HALL PRAYER MEETING OPEN TO ALL FOR PEACEFUL PARTICIPATION:
I moved to Brandon five years ago and chose to recieve the Brandon Sun over the Winnipeg Free Press because I wanted to learn about our community and at that time there was only one newspaper. The paper still does a great job of giving us news from around town.
Most recently the Sun posted a letter to the editor from Bill Baker, who is a regular contributer to the letters section. His second most recent letter ridiculed the late Pope John Paul and it seems many other leaders who do not allign w/his personal views. {NOTE FROM BILL: I have writtena letter to the editor again, in it I defend in a couple sentences why I did this}.
His June 7 letter cited a lunch hour prayer that has been hosted in a room at city hall for the past 2 years. This prayer meeting is inter-denominational, not evangelical/conservative as Mr.Baker claims. {NOTE FROM BILL: Actually I never said "conservative' I said Evangelical/Fundamentalist, slight difference; second-I knew well that it was inter-denominational, but all the churches of all the denominations in this town are fundamentalist and/or evangelical, so I never said anything not true}.
The Purpose is to pray for our city and nation under the direction of 'Prayer Canada'. This takes place across the nation in many municipalities. We pray for our city and it's leadership, businesses, growth, development as Timothy 2:1 encourages us to do: "I urge,then, first of all that requests,prayers,intercession and thanksgiving be made for everyone for kings and all those in authority."
A national poll was done in 2002 in Canada and found that 75% of canadians regularly are praying people. Our current prime minister-and most leaders-when a time of trouble befalls this nation, usaully concludes w/this statement: "Our thoughts and prayers are w/you at this time".{NOTE FROM BILL: I rebut these assertions and statements in my next letter}.
At this time particular time in Canada, I think there is a general consensus that help is needed{NOTE FROM BILL: I also comment on this in my next letter}.
This time of prayer is open to all who want to come and peacefully participate{NOTE FROM BILL: Um, really, what of liberal christians/faitheists whom wish to pray for equality across the boatd for ALL including gays??? What about non-christians, this statement of his is a bold faced lie!}
Those who regularly attend are not interested in debating or entertaining a protest{NOTE FROM BILL: of course not; because to do so would openly reveal that they are not intereste din democracy-but rather with subverting it}.
Our local misisterial association, of which I am privileged to be a part of in Brandon, has adopted a slogan which says "one city, one church, many congregations"{NOTE FROM BILL: "all christian, all evangelical and/or fundamentalist, all ignoring the exitence and ideals of other faiths, philosophies, and non-faiths"}.
If Mr.Baker has an issue w/leadership of govt, churches, and Christian charities,etc, so be it, but I think your newspaper has a responsibility to show some discretion on what is printed and where it is displayed.{NOTE FROM BILL; practice what ya preach Mr. invade the govt offices}.
Leadership of families, businesses, cities, nations, churches,etc. is a challenge in the best of times and needs the support of the people it tries to serve instead of negative articles undermining leadership{NOTE FROM BILL; hmmm.this coming from one of those that does so when the govt makes effort to make gays equal under the charter,etc}. Your readership deserves better reporting on these types of issues.
What has made Canada one of the greatest nations to live in was the sacrifice and hard work of it's citizens and good{not perfect} democratically elected leadership.
May God keep our land glorious and free!
Pastor Mike Davis
Brandon.


Now, I attended a service at Davis's church last night to talk to him about these things diplomatically. He was not there. But I stayed in silent protest of on behalf of democracy and freethought against the subversion os cuh by those of theocratic mind and may continue to do so, I also may continue to to go to the prayer meetings in the city halls councillors meeting room in silent protest, or perhaps-even though I've no faith-pray to the collective unconciuos or something out loud positively for things that are humanistic and defy the laws of the christian god. we'll see.

Now, my rebuttal letter has yet to be sent to the paper, and I may not even send it, but I might. "IF" I do, I will come back here and copy it to this very post following this very small paragraph here; so come back once in awhile to see if it is in here. it'll appear w/in a couple days probably "if' I send it to the paper.

OK, HERE IS MY REBUTTAL LETTER{I've sent it in}:
Regarding Pastor Mike Davis' letter in Sundays Sun.
Pastor Mike said that I said the prayer meeting at city hall was/is Evangelical/Conservative, and that it isn't, that is is inter-denominational. Fist, I said Evangelical/Fundamentalist, not "conservative"; this may be semantics, but their are slight though notable differences. Second, I never said it was not inter-denominational, I knew that it was, otherwise I would've been more specific and said something akin to it was "pentecostal" or "Baptist" or "Protestant" or "Catholic",etc. In Brandon, most of, if not all of these denominations ARE Evangelical and/or Fundamentalist. So, I never said anything that was not true.
Next, in regards my letters to the editors on the Pope and on faith-based charities, I will not redefend my opinions, I will simply say that I adequetely explained why I hold those positions and why I believe they are ethical and correct in the actualy letters.
As far as the national poll that Mike makes referance to. First, there are margins of error in all polls that vary in degree. Also, regardless of how many people "pray", they are not all praying to the same god{s}/ess{es}, and even many Christians are praying to a more liberal/equality minded god{or perhaps one that is a metaphor}. Many are simply praying to{or sending thoughts out to} the ether, the collective unconciuos,etc.
The Statement "our thoughts and prayers are with you" said by the govt leaders is a fair statement, it does not show favor to a monotheistic god or any version of divinity at all; it is fair and inclusive to the faithful of all faiths and to the faithless by way of term "thoughts".
Many people{faithful included} believe help is needed; however, not all of them are asking for this from a monotheistic,anthropormorphic ancient, Abrahamic sheep herder/war deity. Many are against the monopoly {some Christians/Abrahamics included} that Fundamentalist faiths have on "positive" ideals and on deity/divinity} and their opposition to democratic equality rights-such as "gay marriage" for exampl{many christians agree with me on this}.
Mikes quote from the book of Timothy reveals the devotion to Pauls ideas rather than to Jesus's that most modern evangelicals/fundamentalists have. they should call themselves "Paulians".
Mike says that this meeting is open to "all" whom wish to come and peacefully participate. Really? How would you react to a Liberal Christian coming and praying for equality for all{including gays in marriage,etc}? How would you feel about Non-christians coming and praying to their version of deity in this supposedly inclusive prayer meeting?
Those who regularly attend are not interested in debating or entertaining a protest, pastor Mike says. Well, Pastor, I think we know the reason for this. Could it be because of your desire to pretend to be democratic while praying for your faith{and your version of it} to dominate everything including the political and social spheres. Could it be that you are afraid that to answer any questions as to the ethicalness or validity of praying in govt offices will expose a agenda of wishes to subvert democracy w/theocratic ideals of the fundamentalist christian faith}?
"One City, one church, many congregations". Indeed. And all of them are Evangelical/Fundamentalist Christian denominations, and this whole thing undermines and excludes those opf other faiths,philosophies, or no faith. My assertion that your version of the christian faith has too much wealth,power, and influence here by your own proclamations-shown, by evidence, to be quite true.
Now, as far as Mikes attack on the Branodn Sun for what he says is "negative articles' against the authorities/leaderships; that's quite hypocritical coming from one whom is part of a version of the Christian faith which often goes out of it's way to attack, speak negatively in the press and public,etc, against those authorities that seek democracy for all{such as for gays}. The pastor is one of their most vocal mouthpieces here in Brandon. It seems that unless it serves the evangelical/fundamentalist christian agenda it is negative, if it serves their agenda-it is positive.
Here, Pastor Mike is dooing to the Brandon Sun what he did to the editors of the BU "Quill" several months ago, telling them what is appropriate and not appropriate and responsible or non, for them to print. Why? Well, because he as a conservative/fundamentlist/evangelical Christian{beeing as specific as I can} is offended at the democracy and fair-minded displayed, and the humanistic values, because they do not serve to glorify his version of god as supreme aobe all others..
I am a man of reason, as such I am not against all Christians/faithists, nor equality for "all" of them and us included{by us, I mean the faithless, or people of alternative faiths}. I am simply opposed to "Absolutists"{that would include those of faith and of no-faith} having special privelages or excess wealth,power, and influence. All I want{as many other do} is equality across the board.
And after all is said and done here, the fact still remains that Burgess and Dvis group are avoiding apologizing for their corrupt,untehical actions-the Mayors and other "govt" offices used by any special interest/faith group is innapropriate and should be aknowledged as such, or again-make them pay for the usage like in say Winnipeg{or "tax" them-the churches}. Allthough, since some don't have the equal wealth that these churches have and would'nt be able to afford it, the best thing to do is to not allow any in there. There is a sayig about "respect all, or respect none' in this case because of these facts, the govt should respect all by respecting none{this is too Burgess}.
To Mike and his group and all the evangelical/fundamentalists; don't pray in our govt offices and we won't think in your churches. However, if you want to do so, then it's only fair that we be allowed to come into your churches and think out loud like you pray out loud in govt offices. And Burgess, you owe the city an apology, instead of dodging the fact that is is wrong.
One more thing, I wish to thank publicly the Sun for their open-minded and fair coverage of this issue, I also wish to thank Tannya A. Ross for her encouragement.
In Reason:
Bill Baker
p.s. to Brandon Sun editor. Tnak you again for your coverage of the issue. Myself, and others such as Miss Ross, and other like us thank you..
Peace to you

In Reason:
The Very Irreverand Bill Baker

Update on what has transpired since my invasion of the prayer meeting mentioned in below post

Before you read the rest of this, please read the post below this one about the same issue. Then come back up to read this one, and then click the followinf link to read the news update on what has transpired{such as the Myor getting in shit because of my revelations, the local newsppare and a local citizen supporting me,etc}-this news update on the situation cna be read at the following blog of mine
http://project-iconoclast.blogspot.com

In Reason:
The very irreverand Bill Baker.

p.s. remember to read the post below this one first before you go ahead to the other blog of mine{unless of course you've allready read the below post}.