Hehehe! So I found out that every Tuesday some local evangifundy christians meet at the ciuty hall at lunch to pray in the hall.
I went w/Bible in hand on Tuesday,May 31st,2005, to confront them w/a few scriptures that rebuke the hypocrisy of what they are dooing by dooing so, commands from Jesus himself. However, it was'nt outside that they were meeting, it was in the Mayors office. I kid not!
So, I followed one of the Pastors up to where they were holding it and only then found out where abouts it was held,in Mayor Burgess's office. I went in, and a few people there know me{the Betehl temple Pastors and one other person} all in all there were a dozen people besides me. I was asked my name, Imtoldthem "Bill, Pastor Mike and Len know me well". I sat there for nearly 45-50minutes listening to them anxiously pray. Near the end of the hour I piped in w/a scripture, which threw those whom never knew about me off, but obviuosly did not surprise Mike or Len{LoL!!!} From Matthew chapter 6, about "praying in public" and about "vain repetition in prayer"; I told them I heard alot of vain repetition in their prayers{they were repeating the same crap over and over again as if dooing so would make god more likely to hear or listen; which Jesus forbade dooing of...}. So I quoted Jesus from the Bible, they did'nt like that much; they started to attack me for beeing there.I aksed them who's permisiion they got to hold a prayer meeting in the mayors office, Pastor Mike chimed in "we were invited", I asked "by whom"? The response= Jesus in Timothy something or other{not that Jesus actually said anythin in that book-doofus!}. They asked whom invite me. I said-You! Your Bethel temple pamphlet invited people to come to the prayer meeting and did not indicate whom could or could not come. I stopped them dead in their hypocritical tracks. Again I asekd if they wer einvited by the Mayor or someone else,again the answer was-Jesus.
I pointed out how I doubted that peopleof other faiths, except for perhaps other abrahamics, would be allowe in the Mayors office to hold prayer and worship meetings every week. I pointed out that I think that it's fine for them to do such on their own time, and collectively in their chuirches, but that dooing so in a secular public office is unduly trying to influence govt,etc, and is unfair,etc. Of course they would'nt have this.
They even piped in with what gives me the right to come into their private prayer meeting and do what I was dooing and to be their accuser. I pointed out that many times in their scriptures their god allowedor even set it up for the "unsaved" to hold the hypocrites that claim to worship them accountable.
I counteracted every point w/evidence that they could not refute. So, what they did next was down right arrogant, they started speaking in toungues really loudly and getting really agressive in their tone of prayer voice,etc. I spoke up, "what are you so afraidof, I sat here for nearly an hour w/out interupting you,I could've but I chose not to because I wished to be polite and lste you finish you rpraying before I said anything; their is maybe five-ten minutes left here,whay are you so afraid to have someone come in and use your own lords teachings to show you that what you are dooing is innapropriate and hypocritical, why are you so afraod to allow me to speak about this for five minutes to you, five minutes is all I ask, why the fear" they just got louder and luder in their prayer in toungies,etc.
So,I used their own prayers against them, I said "youprayed about freedom and democracy, yet you don't wish to hear me speak about thse things for five minutes"[and their prayers were laced w/subtle theocraticlanguage throughout, they praised democracy and freedom and yet showed that they truly want a christian theocracy}. I also used other things they prayed favorably about against their hypocrisy.
Anyways,they ended the meeting quickly. I again asked Pastor Mike for info about whom invited them{the human culprit, not their lords spirit}to pray there, he just kep evading my questiosn and beating around the Bush and trying to ignore them. I acused him saying "you prayed for and about honesty and integrity, yet you cannot even show some honesty and integrity and asking my simple questions about whom invited you, the mayor or someone else?" I said, I think the Christian church is beeing shown favour by the secular govt as well. Mike kept evading my questions and just walked away from me, in fact they all did, no one was willing to politely and rationally discuss for a few shirt misnutes or to answer my simple questions, they acted like children, why in the world would they evade and walk away or just pipe up loudly in toungues rarher than show some integrity and maturity and simply asnwer my questions{such as "whom invited you"} unless they knew I was right and were denying it to themselves and were scared{as opposed to full of faith} and hiding something.
Anyways, it was quite the show. As I left the building I shouted to Pastor Mike whom was a small distance away from me so i had to shout to be heard, "think about it Pastor Mike, you know I'm right". He never even looked back or aknowledged me,in fact he and all these so called loving christians could only ignore me and be assholes when I finally spoke up,made my points{from their own lords commands and scriptures}and asked that simple question="who invited you?". It was unbelievable their behaviour. sure I was there to stir up controversy, but I did it politely until they started acting like childish,evading politician assholes! Even then I was polite, just blunt and loud because I had to spek up to be heard over their toungues/praying and when they were walking away w/out even attempting tolisten and address the issues I was bringing up.I told them that even if I was still christian I'd likely do this same thing, because when iwnas christian I beleive dit was important to address and expose hypocrisy and legalism in the Church.
So,I came back later in hopes of setting up an appointment to talk to Mayor Burgess by asking his secretary,when i got back-he was just leaving the offices himself{he was'nt there during the prayer time}, I addressd the issue, and he said that he was fine w/what they were dopoing,i asked if he shared their faith, he said that is his own private business,I said-"perhaps, but if you do, that certainly opens up doors of possibility that you are showing them favor",I asked if he would allow peopleof other religions to do the same thing, he said if a muslim,jew,f\group wanted to do this he'd be fine w/it. Knowing that they are all cloesly tied, I said "what about pagans,wiccans,satanists,hindues,etc?", he said yes, to them all, except-when I mentioned Satanism{which i did seperately" he hesitated and basically put firht the implication that he might consider the request. I also asked him if he or anyone there invited the fundy christians to do this{as Mike implied by saying "invited"-even though he said Jesus invited them I'm sure that when he said it it had a double meaning}. he said that they came to him for permission and that no other faith groups have done the same...
....So, I think anyone whom is of some other faith other than christian, or at leats fundy/christianity, and other philosophies{faithful or faithless} should get together and ask for similar permsiion to hold meetings in the Town Centre{s} and the Mayors office{es} for prayer or just for philosphical discussion and stuff as well as political/social strategies based on their religiuos convictions or philosophical ideals and how to influence the culture and govt w/them{because that IS excetly waht these christians are dooing in their prayertime in the public government offices}, lets show em what for is what I say. let em reap as they sow!
Anyways, an entertaining event and an entertaining story for me to share. LoL!!! It's funny indeed, but also seriuos, because this just shows how much more power,wealth,influecne, the evangelical/fundamentalist churches and christians hold than other peopleof other faiths/beleifs/philosophies/non-beleifs in our culture and country; the fact that for example here in Brandon every few blocks you've got a christian church{allof them fundamentalist/evangelical; none of them liberal} and no other temples of other religions{well...except for the Freemason building},etc, the welth they ahev to produce their evangifundy christian entertaunment, and to influence politicsmore than other faith groups and more than the faithless proves my assertion that they are dangerous to freedmona dn democracy; lest we forget that it is "mainly" them that hold back gay rights and abortion rights,etc, if it was'nt for them -such things as gay marriae would not ewven be an issue politically and socially, just shows how much power they truly have!
Anyways, hahahaahaaaa!!!amusinf event, amusing day,I walked away w/a big grin on my face at my moral victory{exceptfor in the case of the Mayor saying he would allow other faith groups to do the same}. But frankly, NO faith groups should be allowed to hold prayer meetings in public government offices. Of course Burgess said they usaully do it in another room in the bldg-but they had to do it in his office today, but nonetheless, this makes it to easy for fundamentalist faith groups to unduly influence govt, faith should remain private and maybe of course collectively public-but not be allowed such priveleages as prayer meetings in government offices and even the mayors offices{unless that particular mayor has a particular faith of their own and wishes to pray by themslelf as they work alone in their office}
Let us all speak out against this, whether you are a christian liberl,a christian evangelical/fundy, a atheist, an agnostic, a pagam or something else; this is not something that is appropriate or should be allowed. And even if you share their faith, surely some whom share that faith can see that this is a travesty on democracy and is not appropriate. If you agree...please all lift up your voice against their subversion towards theocracy
In Reason:
Bill
p.s. I am taking this isseu up w/local city ward counsellors, as well as writing a "Letter to the Editor" to the Local newspaper about it. In fact I have allready done so,I may or may not yet copy and paste them to my blog, we will see; but I will definately keep you up to date on this as it unfolds.
Actually,
here they are:
Here is the "Letter to the Editor":
During the Lunch hour of May 31st I attended an Evangelical/Fundamentalist Christian prayer meeting held at City Hall. I'd read about it via a Bethel Christian Assembly pamphlet, apparently it is a weekly event. I wanted to see where abouts it was held; if it was outside{freedom of peaceful assembly} or somewhere else.
When I arrived I followed a Pastor from Bethel into the City Hall and up to Mayor Burgesses office where about a dozen local Christian Leaders and others were about to pray, and of course their prayers were about many things, some of which revealed their hidden fundamentalist agendas for the culture and to see "their" version of the Christian faith gain more influence and power, amongst other prayers. I sat patiently and politely for 50 minutes until it was nearing an end. Near the end one of the attendees read from the Bible, so I took the Bible which I'd brought with me and quoted commands from Jesus which exposed what they were dooing as wrong for a few reasons. I also asked them how they got permission to hold their prayer meeting at the City Hall every week-and in Burgess office. Rather than humbly answer my questions and concerns, they did two things; in response to my question, Pastor Mike of Bethel answered "we were invited", when I asked by whom{repeatedly} he repeatedly gave me this answer w/an arrogant look on his face- "Jesus". So they were evasive of my questions, they'd make great politicians; it's funny one of their prayers was about integrity and honesty and yet they showed none to me nor by the using of the Mayors office for their fundamentalist prayer meeting; they also thanked god for freedom and democracy, even though they were dooing everything they could to subvert such, as they usaully do. The second thing they did that showed a lack of maturity and honesty was rather than answer my question and rather than consider what Jesus said when I quoted him -they began shouting in toungues and rebuking the devil and stuff.
This whole thing shows the lack of ethical behavior by both these religious leaders{amongst them were the Pastors of Bethel- Mike Davis and Len, as well as Henry Idonije of "street love", and others}. They could not even show me so-called Christian fairness,charity, or integrity by humbling themselves to what I read from their scripture, and also by beeing evasive. Worst of all while I was still trying to engage them in conversation about how innapropriate this all was ethically,logically, and even according to Jesus teachings, after shouting in toungues and rebuking the devil and evading my questions, they ignorantly got up and walked away while I was still talking w/them. They acted in a manner and were dooing things that even Jesus himself would've found despicable and would've accused them of hypocrisy.
I talked to Burgess later that day about this charade. I asked him if he'd allow other religious or faith groups of non-christian religions to do the same in his office, he said yes. I named several religions to which he promptly said "yes", but when I reached Paganism and Satanism-he stalled and then indicated a "maybe", which tells me that as much as he denied favoritism, he was indeed showing "some" at least.
I asked Burgess if it was appropriate for faith-based groups{especially hardcore Fundamentalist/Evangelical ones} to be holding prayer meetings in his office every week. He told me it is usaully held in another room in the building{like there are'nt enough churches in Brandon for them to do this} but it was beeing used so they had to use his office. I repeated "still, is that really appropriate", indicating that he should've just not let them do their prayer meeting this week. He showed no remorse or shame.
Am I missing something? Is this not an insult to and violation of 'seperation of church and state?' Does this not make it more possible for faith-groups and Churches to unfairly influence our gov't leaders and subvert them and subvert democracy in favor of Theocratic ideals and fundamentalist values and beliefs. Which can tricke into our laws and culture subversevely and negatively affect all those whom don't share those faith values?
I ask that Burgess and these religious leaders not be let off the hook, that they be held accountable for this travesty, this abuse of the public office and of power. For giving favors and privelages of this like to fundamentalist faith based groups, what they have done is unethical and insulting!
If it is allowed to continue, then I strongly encourage people of other faiths and religions and philosophies in Brandon to request the same privelages and take advantage of them; Monotheists,Polytheists,Pagans,Pantheists,Deists,Atheists,Everyone! Not that I think that it would be appropriate either, because frankly no faith nor religious group, nor faithless group for that matter, should be allowed this kinda privelage. However, if the meetings of these Fundamentalist Christiasn are not halted, then it is only fair that other people should take advantage of this opportunity.
Do not the Fundamentalist/Evangelical Christians have more than their fair share of influence and power in Brandon allready? Try going a few blocks w/out beholding one of their elaborate temples or that most "charities" for the less fortunate are in their control and used to prosalatyze, or advertisements somewhere{including in the "Brandon sun"} and yet finding nothing the same for other religions/faith-groups,etc, that reside in Brandon. But then again, most of the rest don't seek to subvert the democratic system or to have that kinda excess influence and power like the Evangelical/Fundamentalist Christians Churches. Do they really need to be holding Prayer meetings in the Mayors office{a violation of seperation of church and state democracy} or in the City Hall-"at all", there is no logical reason except subversion and power hunger for undue political and moral influence on the gov't and culture.
Burgess and these religious leaders and individuals should be held to account for this abuse.
In Reason:
Bill Baker
Brandon
Here is the email/letter to the Brandon City Counsellors:
Greetings Brandon city councellors.
My name is Bill Baker; I am a 26 year old resident of Brandon. I am emailing you all about a concern I have regarding something that happenned in Mayor Burgess office.
I am not sure exactly how the rules and the laws work in regards this following issue, I am aware we do revere seperation of church and state in this country, and therefore in Brandon. I am not certain whether the following directly violates this; however, it's still questionable behaviuor as far as I'm concerned, and many others agree and would agree.
On Tuesday,May 31, I attended a prayer meeting held by local fundamentalist/evangelical Church leaders and a few others held at the City Hall. I'm aware there are rooms that are open to the public, including perhaps this sort of activity{?} in the building, and of course a peaceful gathering could legally be held outside to my understanding{?}.
I first found out about this meeting via a Church bulletin from Bethel Temple. So I decided to go to make sure that nothing was done that violated this ideal of the seperaion of church and state. It was to be held at noon, and is apparently held at noon every Tuesday.
When I arrived I followed a Pastor from Bethel up to the Mayors office. I was disturbed to see that they were holding this in the Mayors office. I sat down and I politely and patiently sat for about 45-50 minutes w/out saying anything; I did'nt wish to interrupt their prayer time, as much as I find it wrong that such a thing is beeing held in the Mayors office.
I listened as right there in the Mayors secular office prayers and worship were made to the Christian deity and messiah. They were praying in toungues and asking that anything not of their god and/or of the devil to leave in the name of Jesus and what not, possibly a subtle hint to me. But I stood{or rather sat} my ground by remaining put till the end. They prayed,of course, many things; some of which were in regards to wanting to see this country and this city fall under the kingship of their version of god and their messiah, whilst all the while praising freedom and democracy{because,of course, such ideals are good so long as they suit ones own religious biases and subversevely help ones own religion gain more power,wealth, and infleunce, than others; and when everything becomes an equal playing field, these fundies tend to start accusing the world of persecuting them and claiming their devil is behind it all,etc, because their power in threataned, but I digress...}. Another thing they asked their god for was "honesty and integrity in the govt and country"and praised such ideals w/their lips{this is relevant because it relates to how the reacted to me later on}.
After that time, one of them read from the Bible, so I too read from the Bible, verses that I read are ones one would think would be more relevant to them than the laws{some of which are cruel} of the Old Testament which they selectively read from. I quoted directly from Jesus commands that rebuked the kinds of hypocricies they were partaking in.
When I did this, and I did it politely,but bluntly, I never got agressive or rude. They started to shout in toungues and rebuke their devil,etc, eventually they started to get up and leave as they could'nt counter my ethical and biblical arguments against what they were dooing{funny this is, since they asked the devil to leave in the name of Jesus, and yet- they were the first to get up and leave}.I asked one Pastor- Mike Davis how they got permission to be there in the Mayors office to hold this mini-church service,he said they had been "invited", so I asked 'by whom?'. His response was "Jesus",I politely but fimly asked again and got the same answer.Now for people whom are praising god for virtues of honesty and integrity they sure were working hard to evade answering honestly,humbly,and w/integrity-my questions. I assumed therefore that the Mayor had invited them, since they said they were "invited".
Of course, as I was still trying to politely but firmly talk to them-they all just walked out and ignored me completely. There was no honesty,humbleness,integrity,or so-called "christian charity or love' in how they treated me and my concerns about this.
Later on I came back to talk to Mayor Burgess and asked him a few questions. I asked him how they'd got permission to be in his office, he said that they had asked permission{not that they ahd been as they said-"invited"}.I asked him if he thought it was appropriate to let such a fundamentalist group meet for that kind of meeting{mini-church service really} in his secular office, he indicated 'no' and said they usaully hold it in another room in the Building{which is weird, it seems suspicious to me that the one time I decided to come and find out about this, they happnned to be in the Mayors office just that once}.. I said that "regardless, do you think it is approproate to allow this sort of meeting in your secular Mayors office", he indicated "No".{now, if they usaully hold it elsewhere as they are supposed to, if that room was beeing used that day-then it would have been more ethical as a secular mayor of a secular office in a secular/democratic city of a secular/democratic country for him to just tell them it was beeing used and they'd have to cancel their prayer meetin in the City Hall for that week, but he did not}.
I also asked Mayor Burgess if he'd allow other faith groups or other religious groups,etc, to do the same in his office or in the building, he promptly responded "yes" and that he'd allow a Christian,Jewish,or Muslim group{for example} to do so. Knmowing that all these faiths are derived from a similar Abrahamic Background and are all "Monotheistic", I decided to tets him. I asked if he'd allow such and such group to do so, and started naming off religions and faiths. To most of them he promptly responded "yeah", but on a couple of them{which are legal religions} he hesitated and then indicated a 'maybe'. Before that I'd asked if maybe he was showing any kind of or any degree of favoritism, he said "no",but this confirmed my suspicians that he was lying.
I also asked him if he shared that groups{the ones that were in his office}faith. He said that he was not of their denomination or church or whatever. Since I had not asked him about denomination-but faith/religion as a whole, I repated the question ad said that I meant "christianity as a whole, you know the idea that Jesus is Lord,the Bible is gods word, born again/saved,etc?". He toldme that this was a personal question. Now od course I am aware that my question in regular circumstances might be innapropriate and too personal, but ti was a relevant question that needed to be asked and answered given the circumstance, for as I said to him "cause...if you do, this could give rise to reasonable suspician that you are playing favorites,etc, with a particular faith group".
After this conversation, I shook his hand and left.
Now, I am emailing you guys{and I apologize for the lengthiness, but I wanted to give you all the details} because this of great concern to me as someone whom is not an evangelical/fundamentalist Christian. I actually shared this story with a Christian friend of mine whom himself found that this happenned in Mayor Burgess office and the way I was treated and the evasiveness and apparent favoritisms/biases of the group as well as possibly Mayor Burgess to be offensive. he has indicated he himself may actually contact the Counsellor in charge of his ward{and perhaps others} about this issue.
I have allready briefly talked to Counsellor Barletta about this when I saw him at the Canadian Cancer Societys- "Relay For Life". But I wanted to share it with everyone. I want to make sure that at least one of you will care about this issue enough to bring it up, whether to the Mayor directly,or in a City Council meeting,or whatever.
I do not believe at all that this behaviuor is allright in a secular democracy, and I do think that Mayor Burgess is lying or at least telling half truths and is showing "some" favoritism at least. I think this is an insult to everyone whom is not a Fundamentalist/Evangelical Christian{and even those of this faith that are also concerned about maintaining a seperation of church and state}.
Frankly, these Evangelical Fundamentalist Christians have enough wealth,power, and influence as is;more than their fair share, here in Brandon, across the country, the Continent, maybe even globally. If it was not for their types{yes,I know a few of the hundreds of religions leaders and followers also are of their opinion on such matters, but that is a few of hundreds; and the Evangelical Fundamentalist Christians are the most vocal and do indeed try the hardest to interfere in such things}, things such as "gay marriage"{amongst other things} -which is the civil rights movement of this time and culture,would not even likely be an issue,or not as much of one as it is, and they'd allready have their democratic rights fully given them.
I dare you to walk around the city, see how many temples of worship you can find that are of any og the hundreds of other religions in existence{and the non-fundy/evangelical christian peoplesof other religions are larger than it may seem, just does'nt seem so because they don't get the favours/coverage/etc that the Evangelical/Fundamentalists do} compared to Christian evangelical/fundamentlaist ones{heck...you can't go more than few blocks w/out seeing one,sometimes they are right next to each other}-the Evangelical/Fundamentalist population here and Country wide is not that big{they are an elite and power hungry minority group whom has had more than their fair share of influence for too long}, see how many so-called "charities' are taking advantage of the neediness and ignorance of the less fortunate by using their position to own the charities and prosalatyze; and the issues regarding undue power,wealth, and influence go on.
Logically, why would these fundamentalists need to meet in the Mayors office when they have so much space and buildings elsewhere? They don't need to, and this is an abuse of public office
They should have equality to the rest of us, yes. But they have more. And... this is very true in Brandon apparently, what I have just witnessed is evidence of this.
I would like to see Mayor Burgess and these local religious leaders held accountable for this indecent and unethical use of the Mayors office.
So,I hope that at least a couple of you will take this issue seriuosly and investigate it and bring it up in council meetings or something. Because faith-groups of ANY kind{especially hardcore fundamentalist ones} should not be allowed to be holding services in the non-religious office of the Mayor, it is an abuse.
Thank you very much for taking time to read this, I very much appreciate your patience.I hope to hear back from you soon, and to hear that this issue is beeing addressed.
I wish you and yours peace.
In Reason:
Bill Baker
Brandon
p.p.s.: to readers of my blog, I will keep you updated on how this all turns out.
The Very Irreverand Bill Baker
